From: Timothy Knox Date: 22:31 on 23 Oct 2006 Subject: Hating up2date Dear up2date, I hate you with a passion unsurpassed by any living being. Why? Because I recently ran you, to update my core system (like you claim to do). When it came time to select packages to update, I (misguided fool that I am), checked the "Select All" checkbox, thinking I'd like to just update everything, rather than trying to pick and choose. Now you want to do dependency analysis, to include everything that is required, which seems fscking stupid to me. After all, I chose everything. By definition, that should need no analysis. Be that as it may, you proceeded to spend enough time on this task that I had time to go to Starbucks, get a job as a barista, and make my own damn latte before you finished. But that's not the root cause of my unalloyed hatred of you. No, the cause for that is when you ultimately decided that I had a failed dependency, on some package. But please, don't tell me which top-level selection (or selections) led to this failed dependency. No, really, I'm keen to guess! I don't want to simply unselect for the nonce the small handful of troublesome packages and get on with it. I love playing package selection roulette. It's half the fun of using you. Grr! Hate hate hate! PS Burn in hell forever, you hateful pig! Yours, hatefully,
From: Martin Ebourne Date: 23:38 on 23 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 14:31 -0700, Timothy Knox wrote: > Dear up2date, > > PS Burn in hell forever, you hateful pig! Fortunately even Redhat know that up2date is the worst package manager lookalike ever conceived for a non MS platform. Hence they've killed it and written a new thing. At least on fedora anyhow, don't know what the paying customers are getting this time around. Cheers, Martin.
From: seph Date: 02:17 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date Martin Ebourne <lists@xxxxxxx.xx.xx> writes: > Fortunately even Redhat know that up2date is the worst package manager > lookalike ever conceived for a non MS platform. Hence they've killed it > and written a new thing. At least on fedora anyhow, don't know what the > paying customers are getting this time around. Wait, are you trying to hold yum up as not-hateful? It's awful, possibly even worse than up2date. I don't know any package manger from redhat or fedora that isn't wretched. seph
From: Sean Conner Date: 03:11 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date It was thus said that the Great seph once stated: > Martin Ebourne <lists@xxxxxxx.xx.xx> writes: > > > Fortunately even Redhat know that up2date is the worst package manager > > lookalike ever conceived for a non MS platform. Hence they've killed it > > and written a new thing. At least on fedora anyhow, don't know what the > > paying customers are getting this time around. > > Wait, are you trying to hold yum up as not-hateful? It's awful, > possibly even worse than up2date. I don't know any package manger from > redhat or fedora that isn't wretched. apt-get, emerge, yum, ports, they're all hateful. GenericUnixPrompt> yum install foobar Sorry, I can't find that package. What? I can't just use the generic name by which *everybody* calls it to get the latest and greatest? No no nooooo! I have to search through the database to find the *exact* version string you compare against. GenericUnixPrompt> yum install foobard-stable-4.3.2.4.x86.bin That is, if I bothered to keep the package databases up-to-date. For instance: GenericGentooPrompt> emerge foobar Sorry, you neglected to update emerge in the past 20 minutes. Please upgrade emerge. GenericGentooPromp> emerge update emerge Sorry, I can't find any repositories for your decripit, ancient and otherwise unsupported version from 2 days ago. What? You neglected to emerge for more than 20 minutes? Muahahahahahahahahaha! Sucka!!!!!!!! l10o0o0o0o0o0o0o053r!!!!!!!! Hate. -spc (pure unadulterated hate for package managers, only exceeded by the blinding hate for dependancy hell nowadays)
From: Greg McCarroll Date: 03:43 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date On 24 Oct 2006, at 03:11, Sean Conner wrote: > apt-get, emerge, yum, ports, they're all hateful. > > GenericUnixPrompt> yum install foobar > Sorry, I can't find that package. > > What? I can't just use the generic name by which *everybody* calls > it to > get the latest and greatest? No no nooooo! I have to search > through the > database to find the *exact* version string you compare against. > > GenericUnixPrompt> yum install foobard-stable-4.3.2.4.x86.bin My favourite version of this hate is 'dig' on Debian, it's a popular program, so in the fucked up crazy world i'd live in, i'd expect apt-get install dig to work. but of course ... E: Couldn't find package dig now I really wouldn't mind if dig wasn't the package name but someone had say made dig an alias to the right package. however i seem to recall that dig was part of bind and has been released under bindtools on some platform. (i'll skip the apt-get line and the inevitable E: line). of course its actually under dnsutils. oh and if you are looking for traceroute, don't bother looking under pingutils or netutils - traceroute is available as traceroute, you see they like to set you up good and proper before they roger you. G. p.s. and lets not even go into the pain that is trying to use CPAN and a package manager. p.p.s. if the above leads into a 'perl sucks' thread, so help me i'll make the culprits use more software as punishment ;-).
From: jrodman Date: 04:37 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date On Tue, Oct 24, 2006 at 03:43:58AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > On 24 Oct 2006, at 03:11, Sean Conner wrote: > > > apt-get, emerge, yum, ports, they're all hateful. > > > > GenericUnixPrompt> yum install foobar > > Sorry, I can't find that package. > > > >What? I can't just use the generic name by which *everybody* calls > >it to > >get the latest and greatest? No no nooooo! I have to search > >through the > >database to find the *exact* version string you compare against. > > > > GenericUnixPrompt> yum install foobard-stable-4.3.2.4.x86.bin > > My favourite version of this hate is 'dig' on Debian, it's a popular > program, so in the fucked up crazy world i'd live in, i'd expect > > apt-get install dig > > to work. but of course ... > > E: Couldn't find package dig While on the one hand, I think your idea of expecting all programs to be in packages of the same name is not a good requirement for a packaging system, it of course points to the lack of an obvious way to say 'give me the package that supplies program foo'. There are such tools for Debian, multiple of them! And they tend to get stale and break. And then tend to need you to manually update their databases (plural) with 10+meg downloads. And they tend to suck. Hate. > p.s. and lets not even go into the pain that is trying to use CPAN > and a package manager. The biggest problem I have with CPAN is the contents. Packaging tools only go so far, taste is also an ingredient for a good system. (And no, I'm not bitching (here) about the language, but the about the poor quality of the stuff shoveled into CPAN.) -josh
From: Greg McCarroll Date: 04:55 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date On 24 Oct 2006, at 04:37, jrodman@xxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xxx wrote: > > While on the one hand, I think your idea of expecting all programs > to be > in packages of the same name is not a good requirement for a packaging > system, it of course points to the lack of an obvious way to say 'give > me the package that supplies program foo' I think you are absolutely right, but it makes me wonder what the point of a packaging system is if its not to give me program 'foo'. Ok, maybe giving me development library 'foo' works - but that should be an edge case. It's not, I know. Ideally, in the "Linux on every desktop"[1] utopian (dystopian?) vision the environment would be aimed at people who were wanting to get on with using the computer for some task and ignoring the internals/general crap - and if we presented the current idea of a package to these users they'd not put up with the lunacy that we take in our stride - admittedly hating it as we stride onwards. Greg [1] or any other platform where OSS is consumed via a package manager.
From: Nicholas Clark Date: 09:16 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date On Mon, Oct 23, 2006 at 08:37:27PM -0700, jrodman@xxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xxx wrote: > The biggest problem I have with CPAN is the contents. Packaging tools > only go so far, taste is also an ingredient for a good system. > > (And no, I'm not bitching (here) about the language, but the about the > poor quality of the stuff shoveled into CPAN.) C is for "Comprehensive". It intends to contain everything. 90% of everything is crud. And for software the other 10% is worse. Nicholas Clark
From: Rafael Garcia-Suarez Date: 09:17 on 24 Oct 2006 Subject: Re: Hating up2date On 23/10/06, Timothy Knox <tdk@xxxxxxxx.xxx> wrote: > Now you want to do dependency analysis, to include everything that is required, > which seems fscking stupid to me. After all, I chose everything. By definition, > that should need no analysis. Unfortunately, that's not true. There might be conflicts between some of the proposed packages. Also, dependency analysis is required to compute the correct order of installation (if some rpms have pre- or post-requires.) However, the slowness and the bad error reporting is still hateful.
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